As within,So without! August 7, 2008
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Whatever sort of atmosphere we cultivate within our hearts will be manifest externally in the form of the world we see all around us. The more we cultivate inner purity, the more the external world will become pure in every way. And conversely, the more we are polluted with lust, anger, greed, and envy without our hearts, the more this world will be manifested as a nightmarish, polluted hell. So the point is that if we want to live in a clean, happy, pollution-free world, this will only be possible when we clear out the pollution from our hearts. The easiest and most effective way of doing this is to reawaken the original, natural pristine state of consciousness now lying dormant within our hearts. In other words, we must become fully self-realized. For this age of Kali, the Kali Santarana Upanisad especially recommends that the most effective way of awakening our enlightened consciousness is to chant the Hare Krishna mahamantra:
Progress August 1, 2008
Progress
That thing or circumstance that does not exist at present, to assume progress, success and smartness in achieving it, is a great error. It is a rule that, the thing which is not there with us right now, that thing even after acquiring (getting) it, will not remain with us forever. That which is there with us from eternity, and will remain with us forever, to attain such a extraordinary thing, is in reality progress, success and smartness.
Those dedicated to attaining the highest Truth (Supreme Reality), their worldly progress happens on it’s own, naturally.
Think - If we, ourselves disrespect what we know, then how can we progress ? How can we succeed?
Real progress, real success is - having purity of nature.
Progress in the world, is not a thing of the present; and progress in spirituality, in knowing the highest Truth, is not a thing of the future.
He who seeks an easy life, he cannot make real and geniune progress.
Just as a tree may rise high without limit, there is no limit to a man’s ascent
In the spiritual path of man’s progress, his attachment to pleasures born of contact is a gross impediment.
The rise and fall of man is through his sentiments and attitude, but not due to the things, circumstances etc.
Congruence of intellect and mind and concordance between mind and senses, facilitates progress. However, the subservience of mind to the sense and that of the intellect to the mind, leads to a fall.
From “Drops of Nectar” in English pg 10 by Swami Ramsukhdasji
JUST A NICE STORY… July 31, 2008
The man slowly looked up. This was a woman clearly accustomed to the finer things of life. Her coat was new. She looked like that she had never missed a meal in her life. His first thought was that she wanted to make fun of him, like so many others had done before.
“Leave me alone,” he growled.
To his amazement, the woman continued standing. She was smiling — her even white teeth displayed in dazzling rows.
“Are you hungry?” she asked.
“No,” he answered sarcastically. “I’ve just come from dining with the president. Now go away.” The woman’s smile became even broader. Suddenly the man felt a gentle hand under his arm.
“What are you doing, lady?” the man asked angrily. “I said to leave me alone.
Just then a policeman came up. “Is there any problem, ma’am?” he asked.
“No problem here, officer,” the woman answered. “I’m just trying to get this man to his feet. Will you help me?”
The officer scratched his head. “That’s old Jack. He’s been a fixture around here for a couple of years. What do you want with him?”
“See that cafeteria over there?” she asked. “I’m going to get him something to eat and get him out of the cold for awhile.”
“Are you crazy, lady?” the homeless man resisted. “I don’t want to go in there!” Then he felt strong hands grab his other arm and lift him up.
“Let me go, officer. I didn’t do anything.”
“This is a good deal for you, Jack,” the officer answered. “Don’t blow it.”
Finally, and with some difficulty, the woman and the police officer got Jack into the cafeteria and sat him at a table in a remote corner. It was the middle of the morning, so most of the breakfast crowd had already left and the lunch bunch had not yet arrived. The manager strode across the cafeteria and stood by his table.
“What’s going on here, officer?” he asked. “What is all this. Is this man in trouble?”
“This lady brought this man in here to be fed,” the policeman answered.
“Not in here!” the manager replied angrily. “Having a person like that here is bad for business.”
Old Jack smiled a toothless grin. “See, lady. I told you so. Now if you’ll let me go. I didn’t want to come here in the first place.”
The woman turned to the cafeteria manager and smiled. “Sir, are you familiar with Eddy and Associates, the banking firm down the street?”
“Of course I am,” the manager answered impatiently. “They hold their weekly meetings in one of my banquet rooms.”
“And do you make a goodly amount of money providing food at these weekly meetings?”
“What business is that of yours?”
“I, sir, am Penelope Eddy, president and CEO of the company.”
“Oh.”
The woman smiled again. “I thought that might make a difference.” She glanced at the cop who was busy stifling a giggle. “Would you like to join us in a cup of coffee and a meal, officer?”
“No thanks, ma’am,” the officer replied. “I’m on duty.”
“Then, perhaps, a cup of coffee to go?”
“Yes, ma’am. That would be very nice.”
The cafeteria manager turned on his heel “I’ll get your coffee for you right away, officer.”
The officer watched him walk away. “You certainly put him in his place,” he said.
“That was not my intent. Believe it or not, I have a reason for all this.”
She sat down at the table across from her amazed dinner guest She stared at him intently. “Jack, do you remember me?”
Old Jack searched her face with his old , rheumy eyes “I think so — I mean you do look familiar.”
“I’m a little older perhaps,” she said. “Maybe I’ve even filled out more than in my younger days when you worked here, and I came through that very door, cold and hungry.”
“Ma’am?” the officer said questioningly. He couldn’t believe that such a magnificently turned out woman could ever have been hungry.
“I was just out of college,” the woman began. “I had come to the city looking for a job, but I couldn’t find anything. Finally I was down to my last few cents and had been kicked out of my apartment. I walked the streets for days. It was February and I was cold and nearly starving. I saw this place and walked in on the off chance that I could get something to eat.”
Jack lit up with a smile. “Now I remember,” he said. “I was behind the serving counter. You came up and asked me if you could work for something to eat. I said that it was against company policy.”
“I know,” the woman continued. “Then you made me the biggest roast beef sandwich that I had ever seen, gave me a cup of coffee, and told me to go over to a corner table and enjoy it. I was afraid that you would get into trouble. Then, when I looked over, I saw you put the price of my food in the cash register I knew then that everything would be all right.”
“So you started your own business?” Old Jack said.
“I got a job that very afternoon. I worked my way up. Eventually I started my own business, that, with the help of God, prospered.” She opened her purse and pulled out a business card. “When you are finished here, I want you to pay a visit to a Mr. Lyons. He’s the personnel director of my company. I’ll go talk to him now and I’m certain he’ll find something for you to do around the office.” She smiled. “I think he might even find the funds to give you a little advance so that you can buy some clothes and get a place to live until you get on your feet. If you ever need anything, my door is always opened to you.”
There were tears in the old man’s eyes. “How can I ever thank you? ” he said.
“Don’t thank me,” the woman answered. “Thank God.”
Outside the cafeteria, the officer and the woman paused at the entrance before going their separate ways. “Thank you for all your help, officer,” she said.
“On the contrary, Ms. Eddy,” he answered. “Thank you. I saw a miracle today, something that I will never forget. And…And thank you for the coffee.”
If you have missed knowing me, you have missed nothing.
If you have missed some of my emails, you might have missed a laugh.
But, there are things you cannot miss - without missing the world…
The man slowly looked up. This was a woman clearly accustomed to the finer things of life. Her coat was new. She looked like that she had never missed a meal in her life. His first thought was that she wanted to make fun of him, like so many others had done before.
“Leave me alone,” he growled.
To his amazement, the woman continued standing. She was smiling — her even white teeth displayed in dazzling rows.
“Are you hungry?” she asked.
“No,” he answered sarcastically. “I’ve just come from dining with the president. Now go away.” The woman’s smile became even broader. Suddenly the man felt a gentle hand under his arm.
“What are you doing, lady?” the man asked angrily. “I said to leave me alone.
Just then a policeman came up. “Is there any problem, ma’am?” he asked.
“No problem here, officer,” the woman answered. “I’m just trying to get this man to his feet. Will you help me?”
The officer scratched his head. “That’s old Jack. He’s been a fixture around here for a couple of years. What do you want with him?”
“See that cafeteria over there?” she asked. “I’m going to get him something to eat and get him out of the cold for awhile.”
“Are you crazy, lady?” the homeless man resisted. “I don’t want to go in there!” Then he felt strong hands grab his other arm and lift him up.
“Let me go, officer. I didn’t do anything.”
“This is a good deal for you, Jack,” the officer answered. “Don’t blow it.”
Finally, and with some difficulty, the woman and the police officer got Jack into the cafeteria and sat him at a table in a remote corner. It was the middle of the morning, so most of the breakfast crowd had already left and the lunch bunch had not yet arrived. The manager strode across the cafeteria and stood by his table.
“What’s going on here, officer?” he asked. “What is all this. Is this man in trouble?”
“This lady brought this man in here to be fed,” the policeman answered.
“Not in here!” the manager replied angrily. “Having a person like that here is bad for business.”
Old Jack smiled a toothless grin. “See, lady. I told you so. Now if you’ll let me go. I didn’t want to come here in the first place.”
The woman turned to the cafeteria manager and smiled. “Sir, are you familiar with Eddy and Associates, the banking firm down the street?”
“Of course I am,” the manager answered impatiently. “They hold their weekly meetings in one of my banquet rooms.”
“And do you make a goodly amount of money providing food at these weekly meetings?”
“What business is that of yours?”
“I, sir, am Penelope Eddy, president and CEO of the company.”
“Oh.”
The woman smiled again. “I thought that might make a difference.” She glanced at the cop who was busy stifling a giggle. “Would you like to join us in a cup of coffee and a meal, officer?”
“No thanks, ma’am,” the officer replied. “I’m on duty.”
“Then, perhaps, a cup of coffee to go?”
“Yes, ma’am. That would be very nice.”
The cafeteria manager turned on his heel “I’ll get your coffee for you right away, officer.”
The officer watched him walk away. “You certainly put him in his place,” he said.
“That was not my intent. Believe it or not, I have a reason for all this.”
She sat down at the table across from her amazed dinner guest She stared at him intently. “Jack, do you remember me?”
Old Jack searched her face with his old , rheumy eyes “I think so — I mean you do look familiar.”
“I’m a little older perhaps,” she said. “Maybe I’ve even filled out more than in my younger days when you worked here, and I came through that very door, cold and hungry.”
“Ma’am?” the officer said questioningly. He couldn’t believe that such a magnificently turned out woman could ever have been hungry.
“I was just out of college,” the woman began. “I had come to the city looking for a job, but I couldn’t find anything. Finally I was down to my last few cents and had been kicked out of my apartment. I walked the streets for days. It was February and I was cold and nearly starving. I saw this place and walked in on the off chance that I could get something to eat.”
Jack lit up with a smile. “Now I remember,” he said. “I was behind the serving counter. You came up and asked me if you could work for something to eat. I said that it was against company policy.”
“I know,” the woman continued. “Then you made me the biggest roast beef sandwich that I had ever seen, gave me a cup of coffee, and told me to go over to a corner table and enjoy it. I was afraid that you would get into trouble. Then, when I looked over, I saw you put the price of my food in the cash register I knew then that everything would be all right.”
“So you started your own business?” Old Jack said.
“I got a job that very afternoon. I worked my way up. Eventually I started my own business, that, with the help of God, prospered.” She opened her purse and pulled out a business card. “When you are finished here, I want you to pay a visit to a Mr. Lyons. He’s the personnel director of my company. I’ll go talk to him now and I’m certain he’ll find something for you to do around the office.” She smiled. “I think he might even find the funds to give you a little advance so that you can buy some clothes and get a place to live until you get on your feet. If you ever need anything, my door is always opened to you.”
There were tears in the old man’s eyes. “How can I ever thank you? ” he said.
“Don’t thank me,” the woman answered. “Thank God.”
Outside the cafeteria, the officer and the woman paused at the entrance before going their separate ways. “Thank you for all your help, officer,” she said.
“On the contrary, Ms. Eddy,” he answered. “Thank you. I saw a miracle today, something that I will never forget. And…And thank you for the coffee.”
If you have missed knowing me, you have missed nothing.
If you have missed some of my emails, you might have missed a laugh.
But, there are things you cannot miss - without missing the world…
God Consciousness…. July 21, 2008
If we want to become enlightened with that knowledge by which nescience is destroyed, we must carefully hear what is the distinction between reality and illusion from a bona fide spiritual master. If we hear from someone who does not know what he is talking about, we will be misled and thus not be successful in realizing the truth and escaping the cycle of birth and death.
How do we recognize who is the bona fide spiritual master? He must be repeating the Vedic conclusion which has been taught by all the great acharyas throughout history, and he must be fully absorbed in Krishna consciousness 24 hours a day. This method of discerning the bona fide spiritual master is confirmed as follows in the Mundaka Upanishad:
tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
“In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in Krishna consciousness.”
Pranam-To B July 14, 2008
To bow (Pranaam / Namaskaar) before Parmatma is his Sharanagati.
Pranaam means – I am yours, so whatever you decide, is acceptable to
me.
“Namaskaar Se Ramdas, Karam Sabhi Kat Jaay,
Jay Mile Parbrahma Mein, Aavagaman Mitaay.” – By Namaskaar, actions lose their binding power,
one meets the Parmatma and is freed from the cycle of birth and
death.
Our culture is basically Sharanagati (surrender) oriented. A student
bows before teacher, a son bows before parents, a chaste woman bows
before husband, a servant bows before master, the subjects bow
before king, an employee bows before employer and so on and so
forth.
Vyasji has beautifully explained Sharanagati with the example of a
child, which is the most apt example on the subject. Actually, we
are practicing Sharanagati at every stage of our life - we surrender
before weather, we surrender before earthquake, we surrender before
sonami waves, we surrender before volcanoes, we surrender before
famines, we surrender before floods, we surrender before fire, we
surrender before our family, we surrender before our employers, we
surrender before the sovereign rule etc. In fact we are continuously
surrendering only, since birth. Until we surrender to Parmatma, whom
we belong to, we will continue shifting base.
Surrendering to Parmaatma is very easy. Just as when a man sleeps,
he does not have to do anything to sleep, nor does he have to make
any efforts, nor does he have to remember anything, nor does he have
to do any work – instead he has to just leave everything. If he
leaves everything, then sleep comes on its own. Similarly, if do not
take shelter of our strength (Bal), mind (Buddhi), knowledge
(vidya), capability (yogyata) etc., if we do not take pride
(Abhimaan) in them, then we are Sharnagat only, we do not have to do
anything for that. Because, in reality every one (Jiva Matra) is
Sharnagat to Parmatma. He treats every one as His own – “Sab Mam
Priya, Sab Mam Upjaaye” (all are dear to Me and all are My
children). But becoming SLAVE of his FALSE EGO, Jiva (embodied soul)
can not surrender to Parmatma.
Actually, to take pride in his own Bal, Buddhi, Vidhya, Yogyata is
man’s weakness, because to take help of anything is sign of
weakness. However, to be Sharnagat is not weakness but reality,
because Jiva is part of Parmatma only. Boasting of his capabilities,
man says that I will do this, that etc., but when he can not pass
urine due to some physical problem, then he runs to the doctor. Only
those who become Sharnagat can make an impossible thing possible.
Parmatma only is doing EVERYTHING, because He has taken us in His
shelter since times immemorial. We now have to accept his
Sharanagati, give our consent in his decision (Vidhaan), say yes to
His yes. From His side, we are his children only – “Mamaivansho
Jivaloke”. But from our side we become surrendered to the world. We
do not actually have to become Sharnagat to Parmatma, but to
renounce the false Sharanagati of the world – we have to correct our
mistake (Bhool).
Sharanagati is essence of Gitaji. If one accepts that Sharanagati,
then he will be ecstatic. He will become special (Vilakshan). He
will start realizing the meaning of Vedas, even without reading
them. Nothing will be left for him to DO, KNOW and GET then.
“Hey Naath Main Aapkaa Hoon”…. “Oh Father, I am your very own.”
Narayana Narayana
Rajendra J. Bohra
———————————————————-
Dear Sadaks,
Until one realises by surrendering everthing that happens to him, he
is still jeevathuma (embodied soul). He is far far inferior.
Bhagavan in Geetha has said in one place a word, “Moodathuma”.
Contemplate on it, as Bagavan is always perfect.
Vasudeva Servam– No doubt the power of Vasudev is there in all
beings. But only few become saints due to sense of mineness and
attachment. When these vanish, mind surrenders to God, and
thereafter, inspite of living in this world, one is unattached like
a lotus in water.
B.Sathyanarayan
———————————————————-
Everything is God and hence no surrender is required is non-sense
based on my understanding. Why does Krishna say than “Maamekam
saranam vraja”? Aatmaa (embodied soul) has to surrender to
Paramaatmaa (Supreme Soul). Else the words Brahman, Parabrahman,
Jivaatmaa, Paramaatmaa etc. do not have any meaning at all. We are
all eternal servants of the Lord and we should regain the devotional
service to Him.
Even Shankara prayed Bhaja Govindam and clearly said that this type
of flowery speech or writing will never help when the last moment
arrives. Only surrender to Govinda will help. Hence he himself
surrendered to Lakshminrusimha.
So, one should surrender to the Supreme Lord. This is written in
the true interest of all real devotees.
Daasa Mukunda.
> Thanks. Right you are. How easily we can cross the ocean!
> That is kripa (benevolence) of God! Can there be an easier thing
> than surrender? Certainly not.
>
> Surrender and the principles of surrender, the great utility of
> surrender - it is seen by us , experienced by us, realised by us
> from day one as our “direct experience”
>
> You were as sharanagat only (surrendered) when you were born!! Can
> surrender principles remain then out of direct experience?. How
> blissful, how fearless, how doubtless, how worryless, how divine,
> how carefree was our childhood - when we slept, played, danced, did
> all sorts of notorities and bratinesses, learnt, grew and developed
> in the loving arms of father and mother? Were we not then
> surrendered? Yes, We were! We certainly were in surrendered mode!
>
> When did we doubt as a child as to whether the mother is mine? We
> did not know with certainty whether our our mother is truly our
> mother, but in our hearts we had no doubt. We had one
belief “Mother
> is Mine”. That is all we had. That is all is needed also - “God is
> mine” to surrender. What other qualification we had then (when we
> were children)? There is no need of any action or knowledge or
> karma, or jnana (knowledge), or mind , or intellect, or wisdom, or
> analysis, or ego, nothing is needed. - “Only God is mine” is
> needed. And it is needed in the form of an acceptance, a
> doubtless, “self” acceptance from within.
>
> You are absolutely right in concluding that a surrendered devotee,
> as soon as he surrenders becomes worriless(nischint), becomes grief
> less (nisshok), becomes doubtless (nisshank) and fearless
(nirbhay).
> And so remains a child!
>
> Why child only? What is patient in front of a doctor? What are old
> people ? What is an Indian “pativrata” (devoted and dutiful)
wife ?
> What were traditional disciples vis a vis Gurus (spiritual guides)?
> What is a loyal employee before his employer? What is a criminal
> before judge? What is a weak before the powerful? All are
> surrendered!
>
> We surrender every day before our mind, before our circumstances,
> before our calls of nature, before our desires, before our
> superiors , before our destiny, before our diseases, before our
> death, - where do we not surrender? What is then impossibility or
> shame or inferiority or unjustness about our surrendering before
> the God? What is difficulty?
>
> What kind of” knowledge” a child has before he surrenders? What
kind
> of analytical research or expertise a patient has when he
surrenders
> before the Doctor?
>
> Oh ! How graceful is God ! How easy it is to surrender! How just
and
> equitable it is to surrender? How beneficial it is to surrender?
All
> ignorance vanishes. All sorrows get extinguished with roots! All
> sins get destroyed! You become indivisible with God - with your
> father!
>
> How superior is God! How merciful is our Father! How great are the
> principles of surrender! How sacred is Gita - the voice of our
> Father!
>
> Jai Shree Krishna
>
> Vyas N B
> ———————————————————-
>
> -Shree Hari-
>
> Going back to to my quote in ‘clarification’:
>
> ‘But one reached a point where every perception one had fell away.
A
> state of absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick
> wall was my own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed
> Divine help’.
>
> After many years of meditation deep silent. Constant contemplation
of
> the meaning of the ‘Logos’, fascinated me.
> Seeing through the glaring double speak of religions, pushing my
> mind beyond the ‘logos’, (well attempting to).
> Two others I have known that had come to this spiritual point
turned,
> to what I consider to be the fountain of great spiritual energy,
> India, and took a Yoga path, I sat at the feet of a High Lama, but
> slowly was drawn towards the Indian traditions.
>
> This site, gita talk is absolutely brilliant, I never looked for
it,
> it sort of came at me, and I did not ‘Delete’ click.
>
> Discussing Surrender to God, with my son, he said, “Hmm, you mean
to
> yielding to your true self, higher self”, “Yes”, I said.
>
> One could not proceed without higher guidance, one had to proceed!
> This was no place to dally!
>
> What of Bhagavad Gita 2.7 , Arjuna was confused, so was I.
> How can I surrender as a slave to that which is my higher self,
that
> which I find in meditation, that which radiates a sweet energy from
> my heart that spells sacred love, and causes my eyes to weep sweet
> gentle tears. I am not sure who does the weeping, the ‘Beloved’,
or
> my lower self.
>
> I will keep reading ‘The Gita’, and will ask questions, and I
> apologize if they are Western and clumsy, but maybe my coal bucket
> will someday shine, (I liked that story).
>
> With Respect and Divine Love,
>
> Mike
> (Mike Keenor)
>
> ———————————————————-
-
>
> Just an observation to correct the address “god”
> In our Hindu vocabulary, PARMAATMA is word used for God. We
> shouldn’t use incorrect terminology. We are supposedly free from
> colonialism and enslaved mentality.
> Naresh Khanna
>
>
> ———————————————————-
–
> — In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, “sadhak_insight”
> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:
> >
> > Jai Shri Krishna,
> >
> > ‘Sharanagati’ (Surrender) & ‘Samarpan’ (offering) are two
> altogether
> > different terms. Sharanagati is of Self and Surrender is of
things
> > separate from Self. “Sharanagati” is “Self” related
and “Samarpan”
> > is “worldly things” related. We surrender our Karma to the God.
> >
> > A Sharnagat Devotee firmly believes that I am God’s and God is
> mine.
> > A Sharanagat devotee with such a FIRM belief then surrenders
> himself
> > along with offering (Samarpan) all ’so called his things’ to the
> > God. He thereafter becomes Assured (Nischinta), Fearless
> (Nirbhay),
> > Grief less (Nishok), Doubtless (Nishank). He, however, does not
> test
> > that since I have surrendered to God, these qualities should
arise
> > in me. On the contrary if he finds any deficiency in himself, he
> > wonders how such a deficiency has still remained. The moment he
> > feels this way, then such a deficiency also alleviates. He
> believes
> > that my relationship with God is Unbreakable (Atoota), Whole
> > (Akhanda), Permanent (Nitya).
> >
> > Whatever God decides (God’s Vidhaan), it is purely for liberation
> > (Kalyaan) of every one (Praani Matra) - if one starts seeing this
> > grace (God’s Kripa), then nothing remains to be done. God craves
> for
> > good of every one (Praani Matra) and therefore he declares “Sarva
> > Dharmaan Parityajya, Mamekam Sharanam Vrija” (Gitaji 18:66) as a
> > very SECRET thing. This is because God considers every one (Jeeva
> > Matra) as his friend - ‘Suhrahdam Sarvabhutaanam’ (Gitaji 5:29)
> and
> > gives them the freedom to use any of Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or
> > Bhakti Yoga to realise Him and COMPLETELY (Samoola) alleviate all
> > pains (Dukha) for ever.
> >
> > Actually, God’s grace is only reason in Kalyaan (liberation) of
> Jiva
> > (embodied soul). Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc. all
> these
> > means are made available by God and God realised souls. Therefore
> > these means are COMPLETELY DRENCHED in God’s grace.
> >
> > Vasudev Sarvam…
> >
> > Narayana Narayana
> >
> > Rajendra J. Bohra
> > ———————————————————-
> >
> > Namaste (Nagaji and all)
> >
> > Mindblowing please keep enlightening us.
> > Jayesh Patel
> >
> >
> > ———————————————————-
> > Hari Om
> >
> > What a divine shape this deliberation is taking?Satsanga has its
> own
> > divinity.Thanks Naga Narainji for really relevant and crucial
> inputs
> > on the suject of “surrender”.
> >
> > ON ONE HAND
> >
> > There is no doubt that we are stainless, immortal, and ever
> > blissful part of God and God only. There is no doubt that a Jnana
> > Yogi upon achieving perfection “becomes” equal to God. There is
no
> > doubt that a Karma Yogi “becomes” the closest to God and a Bhakti
> > Yogi ” becomes” indivisible with God. Why do they reach there ?
> > Because they are not inferior to God - 100 percent right.!
> >
> > There is also no doubt that both Liberation and Bondage are in
> Mind
> > only. Actually, neither is existing- all are relative terms.
There
> > is also no doubt that without even thinking / imagining /
> accepting
> > any existence of God a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi can “become”
as
> > good as God. How can a son be inferior or superior to father? How
> > can a part be different than the whole? There is no doubt that
the
> > fundamental principle of Gita is VASUDEVAH SARVAM - it is
> > declaration of God, Gita and all Vedas. Poison is as good a
> creation
> > of God as is nectar.
> >
> > ON THE OTHER HAND
> >
> > There is no doubt that God in Gita declared Himself to be
beyond
> > Nature and superior to individual soul (Jeeva - 15:18). There is
> no
> > doubt that inspite of being fundamentally stainless, faultless
> > fragment of God, every human being makes mistakes - to err is
> human.
> > There is no doubt that we all feel imperfection, deficiency,
lack,
> > inspite of being Son of the King of all Kings and being capable
of
> > getting equal or nearest to or indivisible with God! There is no
> > doubt that “samarpan” and “sharangati” are totally different
> terms,
> > as per Gita and “surrender” is “sharanagati” not “samarpan”.
There
> > is no doubt that Gita starts and ends with “sharanagati”
> > (surrender). There is no doubt that 18:66 is about “surrender”
and
> > not “samarpan”. Why 18:66 only ? Gita is full of verses where the
> > surrender is glorified ( e.g. 7:14, 15:4, 7:19,
> > 8:14,8:22,9:13,9:34,15:19 etc). There is no doubt that “samarpan”
> is
> > also used in Gita ( Ref 9:26, 9:27, 9:28, 12:6 - 12:7, 12:8,
etc).
> > There is no doubt that Jeeva (embodied Soul) experiences a
> fiercely
> > burning desire in him of getting something, doing something and
> > knowing something - that is true as of date with all of us. There
> is
> > no doubt that we lack peace, bliss and fearlessness - at present.
> >
> > If you can’t surrender anything because everything is God, then
> you
> > can’t renounce or offer the ownership also or relinquish your
> > rights (samarpan)of anything, because everything is God! In
> > VASUDEVAH SARVAM there is neither “sharanagati” nor “samarpan”.
> Who
> > will do “samarpan” to whom? There is one only, there is no second
> > existing!
> >
> > “There is also no doubt that by use of different terms,
> > say “samarpan” or “sharanagati”, the basic element or process
> stated
> > in 18:66 doesn’t change. The words are not important, they
> > are “drukanya karane” as per Bhaja Govindam quoted by Naga
> > Narayanaji. Words employed therefore make no difference.
> Important
> > is basic fact - if Jeeva (embodied Soul) is part of God, where
is
> > question of surrender/ samarpana/ any process?
> >
> > It is also true that all sense of fear, inferiority etc are not
> > existing in reality - they are only in mind. It is also true that
> > all scriptures, Gita, God advice Jeeva not to feel fearful,
> > inferior, deficient or incapable, worried, unhappy. At the same
> time
> > this is also true that each saadhak or human being hits a
> brickwall
> > of ignorance or realises limitations of his mind during his
> > spiritual journey. It is difficult to imagine any human being can
> > escape the limitations of mind and intellect. The real journey
> > starts therafter.
> >
> > The entire discussion is focused on Jeeva being part of God and
> > hence being in no way inferior to God.
> >
> > Sure!
> >
> > But Jeeva (embodied soul) as of date is not equal or closest or
> > part of God - he has forgotten. Inspite of being perfect, Jeeva
> > feels imperfection. Inspite of needing nothing, Jeeva feels
> > deficiency. Hence Gita, hence need of religion, Hence Saints,
> Hence
> > Satsanga, Hence “samarpana”. Hence “sharanagati” (surrender), so
> > that Jeeva “becomes” (I repeat “becomes”) equal to/nearest
> > to/indivisible with God. So that Jeeva recalls his eternal
> > connection with God. So that Jeeva feels perfect, faultless and
> ever
> > blissful. So that a lost , bewildered, sufferring son goes back
> into
> > the arms and shelter of his father. So that Jeeva nevers feels
> > inferiority.
> >
> > Oh! What a beautiful experience it is to talk/ think/ deliberate
> > about God, His devotees, His Voice, His Gita, His principles, His
> > infinite minds and intellects, His children !
> >
> > Pranaam to all
> >
> > Jai Shree Krishna
> >
> > Vyas N B
> >
> > ———————————————————-
> > — In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, “sadhak_insight”
> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God?
> > >
> > > NO … and, NO … and NO.
> > >
> > > God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be
> careful,
> > > I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is
> inferior
> > > to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM.
> > >
> > > Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I
AM
> > > NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING
> > > INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such
> because
> > > everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I
> suffer.
> > > An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while
> actually
> > > feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt
> to
> > > perceive relative inferiority around to believe self
superiority
> is
> > > the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being
> > > inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in
> the
> > > other case I don’t know that I am inferior.
> > >
> > > One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that
> > > there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such.
> > > Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such.
> > > Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and
> > nothing
> > > to be afraid of:
> > >
> > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate |
> > > Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate ||
> > >
> > > The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the
> inferiority
> > > driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct
> > > to “appear” superior … sulking away from my true presence with
> the
> > > Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of
superiority
> > and
> > > inferiority.
> > >
> > > The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior
> driving
> > > me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to “feel”
> > > superior … running away from my true presence with the
Universal
> > > Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and
> > > inferiority.
> > >
> > > Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority;
> > > acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two;
understanding
> > > the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing
> that
> > > the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and
> > > hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear
> and
> > > desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating
> factors
> > > that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the
> > > process.
> > >
> > > Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah |
> > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah ||
> > >
> > > The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated
> > > as “surrendering”. Again, please note that
> > >
> > > 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very
> > > notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered
> is a
> > > fallacy
> > > 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as
> > > such
> > > 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD
> > >
> > > Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one
> drop
> > > Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again
understand
> > > the subtle differences between information, logic and
knowledge.
> We
> > > should observe the subtle differences between the our
activities,
> > > work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences
> > between
> > > desires, emotions and devotion.
> > >
> > > Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one’s
> > presence
> > > is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one’s
> presence
> > > is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently
> revealed
> > in
> > > one’s sensory perception, all the perceptions are established
> > within
> > > this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our
> > > cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as
reality
> > > rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises
> and
> > > into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the
> > > substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries.
> > > Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to
appreciate
> > > one’s relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic
> can
> > > capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued
point
> > > toward the substratum, The Knowledge.
> > >
> > > The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help
> us
> > to
> > > appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one
> hand
> > it
> > > is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that
> can
> > > break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by
> dropping
> > > one’s analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels
> > > frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one’s
> ignorance.
> > > Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the
> > > mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by
itself
> to
> > > be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and
> painful
> > > miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance
as
> > > such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this
> > > mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti:
> > >
> > > Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam |
> > > Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena ||
> > >
> > > Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate |
> > > Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane ||
> > >
> > > Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding
and
> > > realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and
> > > Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE …
activities
> > are
> > > NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities
and
> > > emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones
> > > individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are
> > > UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly
> > > different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously
> > synonymous
> > > to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged
along
> > > The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The
> > > Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The
> > > Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or
> > > activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas
> > > (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries.
> > >
> > > Respects.
> > >
> > > Naga Narayana.
> > > ———————————————————-
-
> > > — In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, “sadhak_insight”
> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse
> 61
> > in
> > > > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita
Press.
> > > >
> > > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding
> feeling
> > of
> > > > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the
> > sole
> > > > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop
> remembering
> > of
> > > > God’s name, God’s virtues, God’s influence and God’s form
with
> > > great
> > > > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities
and
> > > > duties keeping God in mind, as per God’s orders/
instructions,
> > > > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for
> > God.
> > > > This is true “Sharanagati” (Surrender to God).
> > > >
> > > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself
and
> > > hence
> > > > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the
> > > writer.
> > > > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to
> what
> > > has
> > > > been written.
> > > >
> > > > A.H.Dalmia
> > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > -
> > > > Naga ji has right understanding of the ’surrender’ because
> self
> > > > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is
> > about
> > > > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a
> > subject,
> > > > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both
> > > agree.
> > > > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as
> > > centre
> > > > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just
> reverse.
> > In
> > > > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted
> it
> > to
> > > > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within
us
> > > finds
> > > > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that
> which
> > > is
> > > > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus
surrenders
> > to
> > > > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in
> > > other
> > > > words, it is removal of ignorance.
> > > >
> > > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena.
> > > Scientists,
> > > > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is
at
> > > peace
> > > > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so
> > that
> > > > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This
> > truth
> > > > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and
> > people
> > > > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma
> or
> > > > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct.
> One
> > > > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and
> > > causes
> > > > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going
higher
> > in
> > > > ladder of awareness.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > K G Misra
> > > >
> > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > -
> > > > -Shree Hari-
> > > >
> > > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B:
> > > >
> > > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is
the
> > > simple
> > > > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have
> > > played
> > > > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean
> humility.
> > > > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad
> > > Gita,
> > > > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even
> > though
> > > my
> > > > comprehension of it is poor.
> > > > The debate goes this way, then that way, “I disagree, I
> agree”.
> > To
> > > me
> > > > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over
> > smoldering
> > > > coals bringing them to life.
> > > >
> > > > With respect and Divine Love,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > (Mike Keenor)
> > > >
> > > > ———————————————————-
–
> > > > Remember Hindus, there is no “God” in the Gita. “God” is not
a
> > > Hindu
> > > > term.
> > > > Class Yoga
> > > >
> > > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent
> That
> > > > Paramatma
> > > > Ram Ram
> > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > > >
> > > > — In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, “sadhak_insight”
> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hari Om
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate!
> Devotion ,
> > > the
> > > > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider
> > clarification
> > > > of Mike. What he” experienced” was right. Whatever he read
was
> > > > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers.
> Conscience
> > > is
> > > > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times
> better
> > > than
> > > > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the
> > > beginning
> > > > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in
> focus.
> > > You
> > > > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed -
character,
> > > > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same
> > world,
> > > > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus
> > shifts
> > > > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise
> > there
> > > > are people who help without expecting results. They were
there
> > in
> > > > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with
> > > > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined
> > > > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us
> as
> > > God
> > > > and God only!
> > > > >
> > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being!
> > > > >
> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna
> > > > >
> > > > > Vyas N B
> > > > >
> > > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > -
> > > > > Hari Hari!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have but two short points.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God,
> as
> > > Naga
> > > > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very
> > > > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual
> teacher
> > > > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion,
it
> > is
> > > my
> > > > > understanding that he has apparently taught that
> individuality
> > > is
> > > > an
> > > > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we
> merge
> > > with
> > > > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that
> > > > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each
> > > > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme
> > > Personality
> > > > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading
> to
> > the
> > > > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally,
> I’ve
> > > > > found that those following first line of teaching consider
> the
> > > > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don’t really
see a
> > > > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think
> everyone
> > > > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and
> > > > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to
God
> > > > through
> > > > > devotion to our respective paths.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is
> well
> > > > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit
> > scholars
> > > > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious
> > > > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line
of
> > > > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C.
> > > > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available
> online
> > > with
> > > > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred
> > > > > to other’s translations as possessing a “serious
> limitation,”
> > but
> > > > > rather have accepted your respected teacher’s translations
> > > because
> > > > I
> > > > > know they are sacred to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different
> > > > conceptions
> > > > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of
> > surrender)
> > > to
> > > > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be
done
> > > > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical
> > > > > differences. I think there is still much held in common.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hare Krishna,
> > > > > Hannah Sandal
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > > > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR
> > > Natural
> > > > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mohan K Muju
> > > > >
> > > > > ———————————————————-
–
> –
> > -
> > > > > — In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, “sadhak_insight”
> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is “surrendering”?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No one can “surrender” to God. If something receives your
> > > > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves
> two
> > > > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior,
> both
> > > > being
> > > > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction
from
> > each
> > > > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is
> > > > > surrendered
> > > > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a
> slave
> > > and
> > > > > one
> > > > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that
> both
> > a
> > > > > slave
> > > > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no
> > > freedom.
> > > > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a
Bhakta
> > and
> > > > > God.
> > > > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all
> > alienation
> > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated
> as
> > > The
> > > > > God
> > > > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between
> > the
> > > > two.
> > > > > > Therefore, the very term “surrender” is a fallacy in
> > spiritual
> > > > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation
> > > of “giving
> > > > > > away something” or “sacrificing something” as if by force
> or
> > > by
> > > > no
> > > > > > other choice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The sanskrit term “Samarpana” is often referred to as “to
> > > > > surrender”
> > > > > > since that is probably the best english word
> > > available. “Arpana”
> > > > > > means denying ownership of something; “samarpana” is
> denying
> > > the
> > > > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts
> as
> > > well
> > > > > as
> > > > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate
> the
> > > > > > differences between subject and object, objects and
> objects,
> > > and
> > > > > God
> > > > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject
and
> > > > objects
> > > > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such.
> > > > Observing
> > > > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one’s ego to hang on
to
> > one
> > > or
> > > > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality
> in
> > > all
> > > > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in
> fact
> > > > > rooted
> > > > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging
> all
> > the
> > > > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge
> > with
> > > the
> > > > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of
any
> > > kind.
> > > > > > Therefore, “samarpana” is the path of devotion to reach
the
> > > > > Absolute
> > > > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is
> > > nothing
> > > > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in
> > > samarpana.
> > > > > Not
> > > > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana,
> the
> > > very
> > > > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just
> > information.
> > > The
> > > > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma
> is
> > > the
> > > > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is
the
> > the
> > > > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding
that
> > the
> > > > > mind
> > > > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is
> > the
> > > > true
> > > > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from
> mind’s
> > > > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind)
is
> > The
> > > > God
> > > > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises
> again.
> > A
> > > > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of “brick walls” –
> > > removing
> > > > > all
> > > > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational
> analysis –
> > > > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if
> > somebody
> > > > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as
> > Para
> > > > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding
> > > (karma-
> > > > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita-
> > karma).
> > > > The
> > > > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant
> > > notions
> > > > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their
> > > isolated
> > > > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any
> > such
> > > > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects
though
> > they
> > > > > may
> > > > > > appear as variant within one’s perception. Breaking the
> > > barriers
> > > > > of
> > > > > > such perceptional isolation within one’s mind is the role
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring
> Gnyana –
> > > > logic
> > > > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes
Gnyana
> > in
> > > its
> > > > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha
> > > incorporating
> > > > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is
> the
> > > > > > foundation for Samarpana.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception
> > (understanding
> > > > > all
> > > > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership)
> is
> > > the
> > > > > > domain of Samarpana.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The
Peace,
> > The
> > > > > Bliss
> > > > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE
> SAMARPANA)
> > > can
> > > > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very
> > > capable
> > > > > > mind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Respects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Naga Narayana.
> > > > > > ———————————————————
–
> –
> > –
> > > –
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah’s views
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very
> > > serious
> > > > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by
> you,
> > > some
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally
> > accurate.
> > > > You
> > > > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of
> > Gita
> > > and
> > > > > of
> > > > > > your devotion to God. .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your
disposal
> > > > English
> > > > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji
> Ramsukhdasji
> > > > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would
> have
> > > > > taken
> > > > > > a divine shape.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example what you called as ” regulative principles of
> > > Bhakti
> > > > > > Yoga” is in fact ” constant practice of (chanting etc)
> divine
> > > > > name
> > > > > > with equanimity having God as the aim” in 12:9 !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 12:10 would have read -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ” If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent
> on
> > > > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less
> > > actions
> > > > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in
> > > > entirety.
> > > > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having
> > > > interest
> > > > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing
(
> > not
> > > > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are
> separate
> > > from
> > > > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only
(
> as
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in
> > > > > 12:12 “practice”
> > > > > > referred is mere practice not “practice with equanimity
> > having
> > > > God
> > > > > > as aim” referred in 12:9 !!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between “practice with
> > > > Equanimity
> > > > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim” referred in 12:9
> and
> > > > > > mere “practice” referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho)
> etc
> > > etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but
> only
> > one
> > > > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is
> not
> > > > > wholly
> > > > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here
> > > > > > actually “renunciation” (tyaag) is more glorified
> > > > > than “renunciation
> > > > > > with equanimity”.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets
revealed -
> > > “every
> > > > > > renunciation results in instant peace” -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ” tyagatchhantimanantaram”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of
> life,
> > > > > > everywhere universally!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement
> or
> > > try
> > > > > to
> > > > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch
your
> > > soul.
> > > > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a
> > > mirror,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > is your attitude so does it look ! !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect
> > > > > translation
> > > > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there
> is
> > > > > > importance of writer!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vyas N B
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ———————————————————
–
> –
> > –
> > > –
> > > > -
> > > > > > Hare Krishna
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike”s Query
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of
> > > > > devotional
> > > > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of
> full
> > > > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
> For
> > > > > those
> > > > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of
> Krishna
> > > > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge,
because
> by
> > > > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real
position.
> > > > > Gradually
> > > > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By
> > > meditation
> > > > > one
> > > > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of
> Godhead
> > > by a
> > > > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one
> > understand
> > > > > that
> > > > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation
is
> > > > > preferred
> > > > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one
> is
> > not
> > > > > able
> > > > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed
> duties,
> > as
> > > > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas,
> > Ksatriyas,
> > > > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last
> chapter
> > of
> > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the
> > result
> > > or
> > > > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma
> > for
> > > > some
> > > > > > good cause.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
> the
> > > > > highest
> > > > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual
> > > > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional
> > > service
> > > > > in
> > > > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other
> > > method
> > > > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one’s activities. Then
> one
> > > can
> > > > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of
> > > meditation,
> > > > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and
then
> > to
> > > the
> > > > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take
> > > either
> > > > > the
> > > > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct
> process
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is
> also
> > > > > good.
> > > > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect
process
> > is
> > > not
> > > > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the
stage
> of
> > > > > loving
> > > > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others,
> > who
> > > are
> > > > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of
> > > renunciation,
> > > > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul
and
> > > > Brahman
> > > > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is
> > concerned,
> > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised
to
> > > take
> > > > to
> > > > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme
> Personality
> > of
> > > > > > Godhead, Krishna
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your Servant
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Janardhana Dasa
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ———————————————————
–
> –
> > –
> > > –
> > > > –
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear friends
> > > > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga.
> In
> > the
> > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try
> to
> > > > > explain
> > > > > > it in the following way:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In
> this
> > > > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of
> > > loneliness,
> > > > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to
> realize
> > > > truth
> > > > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed,
YOGA
> > > > > starts.
> > > > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he
> > does
> > > it
> > > > > by
> > > > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge
of
> > the
> > > > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to
> > > (YOGA)
> > > > > the
> > > > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has
this
> > ZYAN
> > > > > been
> > > > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be
> > > VISHAYA.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is
> called
> > > > > KARMA.
> > > > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and
> this
> > is
> > > > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know
> his/her
> > > > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self
> realization,
> > > this
> > > > > is
> > > > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a
> stage
> > of
> > > > > self
> > > > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In
Buddhist
> > > > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It
> has
> > > > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH
(endurance),
> > and
> > > > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier
> > > periods,
> > > > > all
> > > > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna
> is
> > > > > Himself
> > > > > > this example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined
> > with
> > > > it,
> > > > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people
in
> > > group
> > > > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA.
> > > Buddhist
> > > > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if
> Bhakti
> > is
> > > > > with
> > > > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches
> > > > > destination.
> > > > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is
there
> > but
> > > > not
> > > > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough.
SoorDas
> > and
> > > > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests
> and
> > > > > never
> > > > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only
> followed
> > Ram
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like
> > > > > milistones
> > > > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai,
> and
> > the
> > > > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI
> YOGA).
> > He
> > > > > got
> > > > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self
> > realization
> > > or
> > > > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to
fight
> a
> > > war
> > > > >